Evolution Again.

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Postby Commander Obvious » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:53 am

WilliamBloke: I hope you cleared your night because this is going to be a long nap.

To pursue intellectualism is to employ ratiocination in one's discourse, and in extreme cases at the cost of effectual policy change. We can sit around all day pondering our navels but never get anything out of it except intellectual lint.

So rather than just try to build case after case, let's look at the "so what" of the examples already given. Of course it is ridiculous to spend equal time on the concept of cows licking frost because that is a paradoxical view of creation (since there is no credible evidence to suggest cows are transcendental, they are a part of "creation" thus cannot have participated in their own pre-existence). It would also be ridiculous to chase other equally untenable scenarios with the same fervor as one would chase an idea formed with constructive evidence.

The reason why we see a distinction between ID and Christian Creationism is that not all those who disbelieve spontaneous sentience are Christians for one, and for two, because the scope of the two points of view are different (although heavily complementary to one another). I agree that open-mindedness shouldn't be an invitation for Supernaturalism or any other 'ism when it comes to scientific thought. But the pursuit of science should not be an invitation for closed-mindedness in return. Scientists must follow the evidence and evidence worth following must stand up to pretty intense scrutiny.

But intense scrutiny should not be disproportionately applied when it comes to education since it can engender indoctrination almost as much as flat out disregard for contradictory evidence. Consider the following quote from the Princeton Review on the topic of the Socratic Method in education...

At its best, this approach forces a reasonably well-prepared student to go beyond the immediately apparent issues in a given case to consider its broader implications. The dialogue between the effective Socratic instructor and his victim-of- the-moment will also force non-participating students to question their underlying assumptions of the case under discussion. It also hones the law student's critical reasoning skills and prepares her to litigate before tough judges.

At its worst, the Socratic Method subjects an unprepared student to ruthless scrutiny and fosters an unhealthy adversarial relationship between an instructor and his students.
http://www.princetonreview.com/law/rese ... cratic.asp

This example is excerpted from a website devoted to legal education and this discussion was started with a legal question anyway. The overlap of law and science is difficult for the same reason that scientists hardly ever declare a phenomenon to constitute a "law" of physics for example. We have the "Law of Gravity" which has (black) holes you could drive a Planck through (ugh, terrible physics pun, I should be Shotz)

The truth is that since Einstien and friends came along, the normally ultra-precise field of Physics has raised more questions than answers, especially on topics thought for centuries to have already been nearly complete. It is perhaps the very stringent expectation of precision that makes physicists hesitant to use the word "law" to describe their most thoroughly developed theories but this doesn't mean their theories are guesses.

So the issue is what constitutes credible claims? If you use popular culture, there is something so abhorrent about Intelligent Design that a site such as www.howstuffworks.com will have articles about Evolution, Bigfoot, and even Crop Circles but will totally lack anything about Intelligent Design within their site. I would suggest that it is not becaue of a lack of credible evidence so much as the site administration's desire to avoid controversy. I support that with the fact that they don't have any articles devoted to the topic of abortion either, even though it happens a little bit more frequently than crop circles and bigfoot sightings combined. While that website may not constitute a perfect exemplar for the rule to be based upon, I am pretty sure that it is symptomatic.

I bring all this up to point out that there are ulterior motivations for including or avoiding topics beyond credibility. I personally feel like intellectual merit should overrule fear of uncomfortable topcis when it comes to determining the scope of science education. I'm not suggesting that ALL people opposed to the thesis of ID are uncomfortable with the topic. In fact, I'm quite sure that most would be perfectly happy watching a PBS special comparing the two "conflicting" ideologies so long as no hint of proselytizing is left in the content of the show. What I am suggesting is that we're so familiar with the lack of objective scrutiny methods imbued in students that we can say with relative assurance that any change in curriculum represents an alternate indoctrination. Whether it includes ID or not, we can agree that science is not taught properly.

The problem is that we deal with a system that overlooks fundamental contradictions and presents isolated facts in rapid succession, all neatly arranged to punish those students brave enough to question their order. No wonder students of biology are never taught to investigate the credibility of a belief system that supposes the remarkable order of life and all it contains spontaneously errupted from a cataclysm of chaos. Some imply that it was bound to happen eventually if we conceive of the infinity of time gone by with the inevitability of ever increasing probability. Infinite time plus chance. This conveniently says that no matter how long the odds are, if you give something long enough to happen, it must. But this is a false conclusion if it necessitates the exclusion of the existence of a diety because no matter how slim the odds of there existing a god, if you give it long enough, infinite time plus chance says it must happen. It is nonsense logic and a fallacy.

So the cascade of repeated questions of "where do we come from" are suddenly outside of the scope of rational science unless rational science adheres to its own principle and considers under scrutiny the claims of anyone who can show evidence. If there were reasonable evidence that a cosmic cow licked frost all up ons, then it must be considered. Lack of evidence is not enough to dismiss something if corroborating and interrelated data imply that the evidence will be there if you look hard enough. It is amazing to me that anyone who was patient enough with the search for dark matter, gravity waves, and black holes might not have patience enough to bear asking why everything fits so nicely together. Is there such a thing as "irreducible complexity?"

In the end, it also comes back to allowing teachers of science to say one of the hardest things for a well-educated person to say: "I don't know." The old addage holds that it's about the hardest thing for an engineer, physicist, or biologist to say. When you spend a lifetime and a career in generating the answers (as opposed to simply looking them up), saying "I don't know" is like admitting a dirty secret, a personal flaw, or a professional shortcoming. Science teachers don't like to say it just as much as researchers don't too. I once asked my astronomy professor about the timeline of the age of the universe as we currently understand it. You see, during a lesson about quasars and other super-distant objects, the fact that we can observe them 15 billion light-years away in a "direction" most nearly described as "out" (thank you parallax) implies that the universe is much older than 15 billion years. Yet the same textbook proclaims that it is only 20-25 billion years old (a number that probably changed in recent revisions). The reason why that number appears to be several times too small is that light years, as a measure of distance, sound awfully convenient but should not be taken for granted. If light from an extraordinarily large object is reaching us after 15 billion years, that object must have been moving unthinkably fast to reach that range within enough time to form and emit light. Let's say an object moves at half the speed of light (making about 350 million miles per hour), besides being many orders of magnitude over the Hubble constant (or the presumed constant rate of expansion of all things in the universe), it also means that these massive objects would be among the fastest moving in all of known existence. The next speed bump (okay, pun intended) in this scenario is that the theory of general relativity so eloquently described in the famous E=mc^2 equation means that the mass of an object actually increases as the object approaches the speed of light (photons do not fall into this category because they have no mass but still have momentum, if that makes any sense). This means that all we know about super-massive objects contradicts the possibility that a quasar would form and THEN move toward the outer-reaches of the observable universe and yet that's how the theory goes.

I asked my astronomy professor what that meant for the book's timeline and rather than simply say "I don't know," he said it was because the timeline was "mushy". I kid you not, that was the PhD's response. There are contradictions out there and they are accepted as part of scientific inquiry now (hence the hesitance to assign the lofty title of "law" to even the most established of modern theories). Why then does it make sense to say that evolution and creation are contradictory and so the best thing to do is throw one out? I don't think it makes much sense but then, I've spent enough time studying and fighting against contradiction that the only area in all of academia still perfectly black and white to me is that tuition prices are too damn high.

There is a major difference between scientifically acceptible contradictions and a paradoxical theory. Two individually sound theories that contradict one another but not themselves may be considered perfectly credible but any theory that contradicts itself is immediately discarded as being quackery at best and outright lies otherwise. Teach that difference and you've done more work for opening a creative mind than any of the teachers I had in high school.
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Postby Commander Obvious » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:57 am

BlueHarp411 wrote:Wondering if Commander and Luke were the head of their debate teams in highschool lol. Quite a match.

Jill


Sorry Jill, I can't speak for Luke but I wasn't on the debate team at all. I was an athletic trainer. The funny thing is that we had to insure that if anyone on the debate team was injured, we provided physical therapy for them. No joke, one kid twisted his ankle jumping down stairs at a debate competition and we literally had to tape his ankle. I'm pretty sure that any school-sponsored afterschool activity requires a sports physical these days too. Chess club, wrestling, they all have to turn their heads and cough.
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Postby emceeONE » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:24 am

I'm sorry, C.O. But you seem to be forgetting something that is so obvious to many opposers of ID. Perhaps it is our fault for not stating it.

It's that science isn't about proving or disproving God. It's about asking, "If I were God, how would I make this work?" We don't come up with an answer and then find evidence to support it. If we do, the evidence eventually refutes it. It refutes it because of the process I detailed earlier, not inspite of it.

Sure, I want kids asking questions and thinking creatively. But I want them to come to conclusions that are right. Not right defined by me, not right defined by the consensus. But right.

The best way to do that is to teach them HOW to learn.

In a science class, you don't do that by giving credibility to something that is beyond the scope of science (which requires answers someway of being proved false...falsifiability). You undermine both, the idea of God and the scientific process itself. The "Intelligent Falling" fake article is both funny and appropriate.

I asked my astronomy professor what that meant for the book's timeline and rather than simply say "I don't know," he said it was because the timeline was "mushy".


I don't know enough about what you're referring to, but just because something is, what I'm assuming, unknown, that doesn't mean the only possible answer is "God did it." Further, could it be that you are misinterpreting the theories and other ideas surrounding this? And if he honestly didn't know, he should have said so.
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Postby Toonimator » Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:43 pm

emceeONE wrote:I don't know enough about what you're referring to, but just because something is, what I'm assuming, unknown, that doesn't mean the only possible answer is "God did it."

That's one reason I'm opposed to religion entering science & schools... for the last few millenia, "God did it" or "The Devil did it" has been used as an explanation for countless things that the humans of that time couldn't understand.

But Luke brought up an interesting point with mentioning Zeus... why is it Christian Creationism and/or Intelligent Design (same thing, as Rick pointed out) being discussed, yet nobody's concerned about exposing children to OTHER forms of Creationism, ala ancient Greeks, Mayans, etc. The stories of those peoples religions were every bit as important to them as the Bible is to Christians today; is it the fact that those religions are considered "dead" and all their stories relegated to "myth" status? What makes the Bible different? Because it's newer? Because there's some actual history strung in with, what I consider, a bunch of mythology? If one is to be presented to children, they ALL should be, dead or not. IMO they're still just as valid as the story of Genesis.

But in any case, Rick's right overall, public school = state, ID = church.
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Postby flukec » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 pm

Of course it is ridiculous to spend equal time on the concept of cows licking frost because that is a paradoxical view of creation (since there is no credible evidence to suggest cows are transcendental, they are a part of "creation" thus cannot have participated in their own pre-existence).


Why can?t you apply this same logic to Christianity and say that it is a paradoxical view of creation because it does not answer the question of who created God? True, there is no evidence that cows are transcendental, but there is also no ?evidence? that God is transcendental (aside from the bible). And if you are using the bible for evidence of God being transcendental, then by the same logic you can use the Norse myths to prove that the great cow is transcendental.

But anyway, back to the main points?.

I believe that when you look into the past you can find ample evidence of a retreating god. God is always hiding out in the enigmatical floating question mark. In days of old god was used to explain common phenomena, like the wind, fire, lightening, earthquakes, etc. As human understanding of the world progressed the question marks became smaller, thus we no longer needed a lightening god or a fire god. God was forced to retreat from these ?understood? phenomena to find a refuge in larger question marks. Up until 1859, I?d say it was still very difficult to be an atheist. Anyone born before 1859 that honestly looked at the amazing complexity of life would be forced to concede to the idea of a designer. Yet, after Darwin?s ?Origin of Species? (1859), the amazing complexity of life could be explained by the elegant theory of natural selection. God was forced to retreat once again in the face of logic, observation, and hard evidence. Once there is a self-replicating entity which is prone to error (or mutation) ?.it is only a matter of time before immense complexity arises. This logic is backed up by fossil records, natural observation, and most recently DNA evidence. (You must also remember that natural selection is not a process of chance. It is just the opposite of chance.) The theory of Intelligent Design has made very little waves in the ?real world? of science. The debate is only to be found in the church, the media, and in state level government (and message boards too)?.it is not one that splits the world of science. I also seriously doubt that scientist?s mass denial of ID is due to their two ton egos and their fear of admitting that they don?t know. Egos do exist, and I?m sure you?ve had your run ins with them, but they can?t account for the large majority of scientists who reject ID in favor of evolution.

However, I do think that the theory of evolution still provides one question mark that is large enough for God to make a comfy home in. We know that once there is a self-replicating entity that is prone to error, natural selection and time are more than enough to give rise to a high level of complexity. Yet, how do we go from random molecules bouncing off of one another to a self-replicating entity? This enormous jump in complexity would have to have simply happened by random chance. The chances of this happening seem to be ?miraculous?. However, this is not proof that god created life at its most basic level. The universe is large enough, and there are estimated to be enough planets, that something on the level of a ?miracle? is bound to happen once, if not several times. There are plenty of theories on how self-replication could have arisen (although I?m not knowledgeable enough to know how many theories there are and which ones are preferred currently.) Yet, because of our lack of understanding about the very first step in the origin of life, it is impossible to rule out god?s role completely. There is not proof or evidence for god?s role in creating life, rather there is ample LACK of proof and evidence to rule god out. This has been the story of science for ages, and thus far, god has been on the run.

I?m not sure what the official stance of Intelligent Design is (I?m sure there?s several). Yet, I think it?s ridiculous for people to still claim that Fundamental Creationism is scientifically valid. It?s also ridiculous to claim that god had a role in Intelligently Designing each living thing, and that he created them basically the way they are (leaving room for micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution). It is NOT ridiculous, however, to be an Intelligent Design-ist who views god?s role only as the one who created the very first self-replicating entity which then evolved on it?s own into the vast complexity we see today. As far as I know, that last definition of ID is the only that is ?scientifically valid?. Yet, it is only scientifically valid because the evidence is too little to rule it out as a possibility...not because it is supported by evidence. In a sense, it is supported by lack of evidence.....just like the idea that Zeus creates lightening was once supported by the lack of evidence that lightening is caused by any natural means.

No wonder students of biology are never taught to investigate the credibility of a belief system that supposes the remarkable order of life and all it contains spontaneously errupted from a cataclysm of chaos. Some imply that it was bound to happen eventually if we conceive of the infinity of time gone by with the inevitability of ever increasing probability. Infinite time plus chance. This conveniently says that no matter how long the odds are, if you give something long enough to happen, it must. But this is a false conclusion if it necessitates the exclusion of the existence of a diety because no matter how slim the odds of there existing a god, if you give it long enough, infinite time plus chance says it must happen. It is nonsense logic and a fallacy.


First of all, the theory of natural selection is not one that states things ?spontanelously erupted from a cataclysm or chaos?. Natural selection is not about complexity arising by pure chance. As I said above, it is the opposite of that. Small, incremental mutations happen by chance, and are then ?selected? by a process that is anything but ?chance?. The only part where chance plays a major role is in the very first step, which is in the ?spontaneous? arrival of self-replicating entities. And while the chances of a self-replicating entity spontaneously arraising in a "primordial soup" are esstimated to be very slim, they are not SO slim that we absolutely need a god (or intelliegent designer) to explain them. The age of the universe and the number of habitiable planets allows ample room for such so called "miracles" to happen.

I don?t see how you?ve come to the conclusion it is a fallacy that infinite time plus chance can possibly give rise to anything. Are you are saying it?s nonsensical because it says that anything can arise, except god? First of, I think the idea is that given infinite time plus chance, anything is possible WITHIN the laws of physics. Being that this is taking place within the universe, we must play by its rules. If your definition of a god is something that breaks every law of physics, then I suppose it could not be a possibility, even when given infinite time to arise. Secondly, I?ve never heard that this idea excludes the creation of a god or god-like being.

I?m sure you know about the old analogy of a monkey on the typewriter who, if given enough time, will eventually produce the complete works of Shakespeare. It is logically inevitable that it will happen. However, the time it would take a monkey to do this is so astronomically high that we can not even fathom it in our wildest dreams. Life?s complexity could probably be compared to the complexity found in the subsequent arrangement of letters that form the entirety of Shakespeare?s work. Yet, students are not taught to believe that this complexity ?spontaneously erupted? like in the monkey/typewriter analogy. Like I said before, the process of natural selection is the opposite of chance.

There?s a better analogy for natural selection that also involves monkeys and typewriters (and it?s one that I?ve stolen from Richard Dawkins? ?The Blind Watchmaker?). To make it simpler, we shall just say that the monkey has to type this one sentence from Hamlet, ?METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL?. The chances of the monkey typing that sentence in one try are very small, about 1 in 10,000 million million million million million million. So much for single-step selection of random variation. However, the theory of cumulative selection is another matter. Suppose that when the monkey attempts to type the sentence, every word he gets right is ?selected? and saved for the next attempt (or generation). Dawkins created a computer program to run this test, and the results looked like this:

First try:

WDLMNLT DTJBKWIRZREZLMQCO P

10 generations (or attempts) later:

MDLDMNLS ITJISWHRZREZ MECS P

20 generations later:

MELDINLS IT ISWPRKE Z WECSEL

30 generations later:

METHINGS IT ISWLIKE B WECSEL

43 generations latter

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL .

So, you see, with ?letter selection? it only took 43 generations to arrive at the sentence, whereas with ?random chance? it would take roughly 10,000 million million million million million million generations. That?s quite a big difference, eh? I think the analogy does a fine job at showing the difference between ?spontaneous generation? and ?natural selection?.


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Postby Commander Obvious » Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:56 pm

Let's define terms before comparing cows to God. We cannot go on talking about God if we're confused about a difference like that. Cows are docile, dumb, and several major generations removed from wild stocks that have long since died off in their predomesticated state. We can raise them, feed them, breed them, and slaughter them for food. Heck, I went to a "cow college" so I know more about the filthy animals than I ever wanted to (think gloves going up to your shoulder so you can put your arm, well, nevermind). The funny thing about many comparisons of religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam to more mythologically-based (as opposed to morality-based) is that you often find that conversion is a one-way road. It seems as though a contributing factor in the demise of the other religions was that people converted to the ones that survived (of course, given that the leaders of warring nations took it upon themselves to make converts with the edge of a sword, it could also be said that those who survived were the ones that converted). However, in general the trend has been from mythology-based systems of belief that rely on diefied allegory to teach lessons about the way it is toward a broader approach encompassing history, homily and hermeneutics to teach lessons about the way it should be (i.e. morality). Some of the ancient mythology persists however, even in the words that modern biblical scholars use such as "hermeneutics" which derives its origin after Hermes, the god of interpretation. Back to science though.

God is not a default answer any more than "dark matter" is a default answer. The only difference is that dark matter is implicit in the left-over mass that is necessary but not yet observed for our current most-accepted model of the cosmos. God is by nature incalculable, by definition transcendental, and it is perfectly reasonable to conceive of as inscrutible to beings who cannot even agree on the nature of beauty, love, pain, nonetheless invent them in the first place. That's kind of part and parcel to the concept of a supreme being, one above anthropomorphism.

I agree that the Sunday-school answer of "God, Jesus, and the Bible" was used in the past where science is used now, but we must remember that science was barely cracking out of the shell of alchemy and numerology at the time so the science we have today simply wasn't available to them. I have not doubts that people who didn't believe in God personally did so socially to tow the popular line and feel like they were "right" and "knowledgeable". I do not think that science supplants God but rather eliminates our poor answers from the past.

As far as the old clockmaker analogy, it is not inconsistent with the Bible either. Remember though, that the Bible is not like Newton's Principia Mathematica, Greene's The Elegant Universe, or Hawking's A Brief History of Time. There are TWO consecutive stories of creation by which the forming of nature and the fall of man are described. These are conceptual, not theoretical. I do not believe in teaching that the earth was created in 7 literal days just 6000 years ago because those numbers were culled from a book that wasn't written to document it for that purpose. If asked how old the earth is, I'm happy to say "I don't know". What I believe about my role in life has no basis in the age of the earth so it never becomes a fear of mine that my faith might falter if the popular numbers change one way or the other. Talking about it is interesting to me though, so I shouldn't imply that it doesn't matter to me at all.

But this isn't about the Bible so much as the available evidence that we can observe around us in the world and infer from our own experiments. You are right in pointing out that Intelligent Design is partially supported by a "lack of evidence". We have yet to find evidence that a process of randomness (in a universe apparently governed by entropy) can produce the complexity we see. As I mentioned before, our only logical way to support randomness suddenly making the jump into self-replicating order is by repeating the same random events enough times so that the slimmest of possibilities becomes an eventuality. My problem with that is what we don't admit when we assume that is true, whch is to say that "God" can "happen" if given the slimmest possibility and enough repetitions by that same logic so we're right back to where we started.

I understand that Natural Selection is different from spontaneous existence but I feel that it is so to the same degree that Intelligent Design is different from Literal Interpretation of Genesis (a non-scientific book). Mutation is not by "pure chance" though so much as the fact that the inherent instabilities of certain processes that exist together actually tend toward change rather than stasis. Everything in nature seems to show a remarkable propensity for adaptation (at least in small behavioral ways). We even see our own species changing dramatically without the need for going so far back as the fossil record. We are enormous on average compared to our former stature just a few hundred years ago (can you say "ready source of calcium?"). I do not beleive that these such changes constitute "miracles" per se. I'm not sure that would be an appropriate application of that word anyway. So once again, I see it that we agree.

Where we seem to disagree once again though is on either semantics or the concept of God's existence being representable as a probability (no matter how slim). Infinite chance means "every probability". Physics and its laws are incomplete. That's what makes it such an interesting subject. You can delve as deeply into any part of it you want and never have a lack of new things to observe and investigate. As our microscopic insight grows in resolution, we only find more and more quandries to ponder. As our macroscopic vision grows broader, we only find more and more volume of information to study. Our wildest dreams would never have come up with "black holes" if not for the ponderings of a man who was bad at math and found the properties of wet sand to be fascinating. Monkeys writing Shakespeare is rightfully preposterous because a monkey is not a random event generator. They'd much rather break the computer than type on the keys. See the FOLLOWING LINK for more monkeying around. And as you pointed out, Natural Selection is not about random events, it is a series of interdependent (sometimes conflicting sometimes complementary) competing for successful self-replication. It would be more like punishing the monkeys for typing the wrong letter (or not typing a letter at all) or rewarding them for typing the right letter (or typing a letter at all). The monkey would then generate events dependent upon what it is motivated by rather than simple random chance. This implies design though because for the monkey to be punished or rewarded, its actions must be compared to a pre-determined set of possible acceptable and unacceptable outcomes (i.e. Shakespeare's complete works). This is where ID comes back to raise their hand like that kid in the front of the class that jumps up and down in his seat urging "ooh, ooh, pick me! Pick meeeEEEeee!"

What we find in most experiments that represent our best approximation of what events and energies, matter and antimatter, and all other data that we can conceive of as being necessary for the formation of organized existence from a slurry of quarks, gluons, muons, and other things you'll never hear about on Jerry Springer, is that ultimately we can only simulate these with our equations because it is too darn hard to control without bias on our own. If we bias the test, we use our own "intelligent design" to generate orderly existence based on conditions we've reverse-engineered through formulae and supposition. It is our calculations that tell us the amount of "dark matter" to look for, the amount of "anti-matter" to look for and the number of dimensions in which we should look in the first place when it comes to this stuff. I imagine that if I were an atheist but not anti-theist, I would be frustrated by this difficulty however unmoved to reconsider my position on origination. What does a divine being whose earthly representatives seem to do a pretty half-assed job giving him a good name want with gluons anyway? Well it depends on why you're asking. If you're asking rhetorically as a challenge then we'll get nowhere. But if you're asking because something about the complexity of what those already VERY complex formulae hints at tells you random ain't good enough, then we've got more to talk about.

You're very right in pointing out that random chance is a failure as a justification for what we see in nature, but what you imply when you say "supose that when the monkey attempts t otype the sentence, every word he gets RIGHT is "selected and saved for the next attempt" (emphasis mine), is that there is a design, a pattern of constraints describing what is right and what is wrong, and that is what proponents of ID are primarily targetting. I do not see this as being so totally divorced from a reasonable argument to make. It just needs to be fully argued and to as precise and thorough a degree as possible because nobody's come up with a formula to measure God.

The fact that it is hard to find God in all of this is not so contradictory with one of the major themes in the later sections of the Bible. It is explicit when it says that people who sincerely look for God will find and be found by God while those that do so for any motive other than knowing God will not. But this is becoming theology and not science so I digress and will leave that for another topic on another day.
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Postby flukec » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:38 am

Let's define terms before comparing cows to God. We cannot go on talking about God if we're confused about a difference like that. Cows are docile, dumb, and several major generations removed from wild stocks that have long since died off in their predomesticated state.


It does not matter what our definition of a cow is, the only thing that matters is the ancient Norse definition of the ?great cow?. The ?great cow? in Norse mythology could have been a special transcendental being that just happen to look like modern cows. For the great cow to lick the permafrost and give rise to giants, it would certainly have to be a very large cow. This provides proof that perhaps the great cow was not like modern cows at all, aside from its outward physicality. Of course I don?t actually believe in a great cow. My point in defending it is to say that a great supernatural cow is no less likely than a great supernatural being of any other form (or lack there of). The Christian God is said to physically resemble humans ....yet, humans show no evidendce of being trancendental, just like cows. So who's to say a god could not resemble a cow?

God is not a default answer any more than "dark matter" is a default answer.


Interesting point. I admit that I know next to nothing when it comes to modern physics. It seems like you need to know quite a bit of math to even start to grasp what modern physics is about. And I suck at math. Perhaps God is a default answer in the same sense that dark matter is a default answer, I don?t know. However, I do know that natural selection and evolution are NOT default answers the way God is a default answer.

And as you pointed out, Natural Selection is not about random events, it is a series of interdependent (sometimes conflicting sometimes complementary) competing for successful self-replication. It would be more like punishing the monkeys for typing the wrong letter (or not typing a letter at all) or rewarding them for typing the right letter (or typing a letter at all). The monkey would then generate events dependent upon what it is motivated by rather than simple random chance. This implies design though because for the monkey to be punished or rewarded, its actions must be compared to a pre-determined set of possible acceptable and unacceptable outcomes (i.e. Shakespeare's complete works). This is where ID comes back to raise their hand like that kid in the front of the class that jumps up and down in his seat urging "ooh, ooh, pick me! Pick meeeEEEeee!"


You?re right?.that analogy does imply intelligent design, and that?s why it?s not a perfect analogy for natural selection. You see, the one doing the ?rewarding? and ?punishing? in natural selection is the blind force of the natural world. That?s why it?s called ?natural? selection?.not ?intelligent? selection?.and not God?s favorite selections. With natural selection, the ?punisher? is the grim reaper, and the ?reward? is avoiding the grim reaper and passing on your genetic heritage. When a creature receives a mutation that will improve its chances of survival, even in the slightest most minuscule way, that creature will be more likely not to die and thus be more successful at mating. With this process, creatures are ?rewarded? for good mutations and ?punished? for bad mutations, yet it is clear that there is no intelligent force dealing out the ?rewards? and ?punishments?. Perhaps the words ?reward? and ?punish? are bad to use, since they carry the connotation of an intelligent being at work, which gives the idea that natural selection has a purpose. Yet, I can?t really think of better words to use at the moment?.so, you?ll just have to try and ignore their connotation and try to understand that natural selection needs no ?intelligent? designer.

If you want to claim that there is an ?intelligent designer? behind the complexity of life, then you have a lot of explaining to do?..

For starters, if there is no natural selection (thus no macro-evolution), then why is it that animals that live in long isolated areas of the world (like Australia) are all more closely related to each other than they are to animals that live in?say, Europe? This fact seriously implies that the animals in Australia evolved from a common ancestor. If an intelligent designer were at work, would it not be more logical to assume that we would find all animals to be equally related or unrelated to each other? Yet the animals in Australia not only share similar traits, they also share common DNA?which further backs up the idea that they evolved from a common ancestor.

Also, we have the fossil record to deal with. Take the horse for example. I believe there are about a dozen different species of horse found in the fossil record. Each species of horse shows a progression to the next species, so that if you ran an animated sequence of the fossils, you would get a kind of morphing from ancient horse to modern horse (not a very good animated morphing, I?m sure, as the fossil aren?t in the best condition?but you get the idea). Are we to assume that God created the most ancient horse, and then had it killed, and then created the next horse with slightly more modern characteristics, and then killed it off, and then created the next horse with even more modern characteristics, and then had it killed?..and so on and so forth, until we arrive at modern horse? Without natural selection, a God who kills and recreates species in a series of progressive steps is what we are left with. And that seems like very backwards logic to me.

We also have examples in our own bodies which serve as remnants of our past. When it gets cold, we get goose bumps to fluff up our long vanished fur. The appendix is perhaps a digestive organ that was once used when we had a harsher diet. The tail bone is another remnant. What it was once used for is obvious. If we were created as is, why would we have these remnants? There is also bad design in humans. Our light sensitive cells in our eyes are pointing toward the back of our head, instead of toward the eye opening. This is an example of a mistake that evolved not because it was ?the best design? but because it was a ?good enough design?. When we?re explaining the creation of life with an intelligent designer, are were to assume that He was sloppy enough to be content with ?good enough??

There are thousands of other examples that provide evidence for natural selection and proof against intelligent design. On the other hand, there is very little (if any) legitimate evidence promoting intelligent design (there?s plenty of bad evidence for intelligent design, however?.a quick google search will show you that). Like I said before, a knowledgeable intelligent design-ist would know to retreat, and put God?s role way back at the formation of the first self-replicating entities. Since 1859, that is the only question mark big enough to fit God (in regards to the evolution of life).

There are TWO consecutive stories of creation by which the forming of nature and the fall of man are described. These are conceptual, not theoretical. I do not believe in teaching that the earth was created in 7 literal days just 6000 years ago because those numbers were culled from a book that wasn't written to document it for that purpose. If asked how old the earth is, I'm happy to say "I don't know".


So, you?re happy to say ?I don?t know? when it comes to the age of the earth?.yet you are NOT so happy to say ?I don?t know? when it comes to the bible being literal or metaphoric. You believe (and thus ?know?) that Genesis was never intended to be a literal description of the origin of the universe and life. I?ve personally always found the metaphorical translation of Genesis to be a ?cop out?. That?s just what it seems like to me, though I admit that I?m not very knowledgeable when it comes to biblical history. Is there any evidence that bible stories were taken to be metaphorical before the progress of modern science forced them to be metaphorical? To be a fundamentalist today is to be ignorant of (or in denial of) modern science. Yet, to be a fundamentalist 2,000 years ago would seem almost perfectly logical. Thus, it does not seem likely that the bible was taken as ?metaphorical? 2,000 years ago. I think the only way to be a ?smart? Christian today is to believe that some biblical stories are metaphoric (although, I?d find it interesting to see which bible stories you see as metaphoric and which you see as literal). Yet, that?s why I see it as a cop out. It seems logical to me that Genesis was written to be a literal description of the origin of the universe. What is it that makes it different from every other ancient religion that attempts to ?literally? describe natural phenomena with supernatural explanations? What is the point of Genesis being metaphoric, anyway? Was the actual description of the creation of the universe so divinely complicated that it could not be understood by man?.thus God needed to ?tone it down? a little? I?m interested in hearing your retort to this paragraph, as it?s not something I know a whole lot about.

Luke
Last edited by flukec on Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby TheAtomicTerrier » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:54 am

i always thought the quote was
" A thousand monkey's on a thousands typewriters and you'd get monkey-poop on the keyboards."


or something like that... :roll:
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Postby flukec » Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:52 am

Here's a nice theme song for this thread to listen to on repeat as you're reading these lengthy essays.

http://www.thetalentshow.org/music/scientific_fact-32.mp3

:D

Luke
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Postby BlueHarp411 » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:23 am

Luke is skimming allowed lol.

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off topic: password

Postby chemolithoautotrophic » Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:57 pm

post removed to the proper area :oops:

thanks Jill!
Last edited by chemolithoautotrophic on Sun Aug 28, 2005 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby chemolithoautotrophic » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:02 pm

Toonimator wrote:
But Luke brought up an interesting point with mentioning Zeus... why is it Christian Creationism and/or Intelligent Design (same thing, as Rick pointed out) being discussed, yet nobody's concerned about exposing children to OTHER forms of Creationism, ala ancient Greeks, Mayans, etc. The stories of those peoples religions were every bit as important to them as the Bible is to Christians today; is it the fact that those religions are considered "dead" and all their stories relegated to "myth" status? What makes the Bible different? Because it's newer? Because there's some actual history strung in with, what I consider, a bunch of mythology? If one is to be presented to children, they ALL should be, dead or not. IMO they're still just as valid as the story of Genesis.

But in any case, Rick's right overall, public school = state, ID = church.

That's a pattern. If you read creationists/IDists texts, seems that their own preferred conclusion logically follow from a supposedly failure of evolution or natural selection to explain some evidence.
"see, the dating of these rocks is confused; Earth then must have been created by Yahve 6000 tears ago, on a thursday, with fixed species", or "'darwinsim' doesn't explain satisfactorily the evolution of the left thumb of the albino echidna, then it must have been intelligently designed".

But the positive evidence for their side is hardly given. There are many other alternative "theories" or sides than just two. I can be two only if we consider that they are science and non-science.

ID creationism apparently doesn't have this trouble as it doesn't even tries to found who specifically is the creator, what would be somewhat okay if they also accepted the inference of multiple designers.

But even if they accepted this possibility of the acceptance of their own theory, the "i don't know how it evolved" scenario isn't enough to defend that it was designed by an intelligent designers or a group of them, and somehow made.

Could as well be that the universe has some "organizer energy", or a "transforming energy", whose nature is unknown (as ID nature is), which is somehow responsible for creating the living beings.

The similarity isn't necessarily due to common descent (but yet can be), but due to a "information field" (maybe similar to Sheldrake's morphic resonance field) that living beings emanate and influence the spontaneous origins (or alternatively, the modification in descent) of new forms. The absence of chimaerism may be because the energetic information became incompatible as species diverged, so the information is lost when informational fields of distant related (be by descend or just information) species merge, it only produces informational noise.

Maybe it explains things like living fossils and lazarus effects. It may be not that these species lived with little change in a restricted location, but they may actually gone extinct, but then arisen again. More or less like atoms of the same element - analogue to a species - can form without being descendant of another atom. Atoms is a good example, because that also may be ruled by this "transforming energy". Different atoms don't arise by modification in descent of other atoms, nor are fixed, immutable entities created, but they change by new organizations in its atomic structure.

So with species may be similar. As not all organizations of atoms are possible, not all organizations of lifeforms are possible; it explains the similarities normally credited by biological descent or teleological function. May be that there are some unknown laws of organization in the generation or modification of lifeforms.

It fits all the data, can suit theistic and atheistic ideologies -as theists probably believe that God created the laws that rule the organization of matter, but don't deny the existence of these laws, and atheists also don't deny the laws, just don't think that there was a legislator.

I can't tell why it's less scientific than ID.
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Postby chemolithoautotrophic » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:30 pm

The discussion is being great, I got to finish reading it later.

I've read something on the earlier posts, in this sense, or that made me remember of that point, so brief comment about teaching science: I think that should be taught what is science and scientific method, rather merely exposing lots of scientific facts and theories, as "it is science, that's it". Science is saw by most people nowadays as the magic of the new century. Lots of people aren't capable of pointing the distinction of what is science and what isn't by other thing than saying that if it's made by scientists, it's science. So if something is "scientificoid" it can trap lots into believing it as they trust science much like people trusted religion, with simple faith, without comprehension of what really happens. Things like astrology are exceptions, there will be lots of people who will say that this is superstition, but also just because it's constantly repeated, more than by actually understanding why.


But about teaching ID, there's a quote of a ID proponent in the link I gave in which he admits that actually there's nothing to teach, or something like that :shock:

But anyway, I got to go and I'll let you with an animated cartoon by Mark Fiore that deals with the topic:
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/super.html
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Postby BlueHarp411 » Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:14 pm

Excuse me a moment let me answer Chemo's question. Send a private message to Sukeband or you might check this section out.

http://www.sketchbooksessions.com/thedr ... m.php?f=27

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Postby felixthecat » Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:32 pm

flukec wrote:Here's a nice theme song for this thread to listen to on repeat as you're reading these lengthy essays.

http://www.thetalentshow.org/music/scientific_fact-32.mp3

:D

Luke


!!! :) :D :o :lol: 8)
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