Well I will tell you if anything, a community college is a lot easier on the pocketbook. When I was going about a year and a half ago, tuition cost about $130 a semester. Now I go to a state school and its about $800 a quarter (I go to a school that is on the quarter system, not the semester system). I can imagine a "real" Art School is a heck of a lot more.
-Keith
The Art School Problem
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by iamweasel1999 » Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:58 pm
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by Toonimator » Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:40 pm
Go the community college route, if you're going to art school for a degree. Get your liberal arts outta the way where it's cheap. Tuition at the art college I went to was $1300 per class. $1300 for an English course. $1300 for Algebra (which was high-school level, and possibly the easiest class I had in college).
Wasted money.
And, naturally, once you begin a degree program, you cannot transfer concurrent credits from another school.
So, if you're going for a degree, go to community college for a year or so. Have fun being "in college", draw in your spare time, or even sign up for some art courses to build a better foundation before you get to art school.
As for the "don't go to school, just draw on your own you'll be fine" advice, I think that's more applicable to degrees. You don't need a BFA to get a job in commercial art. Some HR departments may look favorably on a degree, but if the art is what matters in the job, the art is what matters in determining whether you get hired. Not a piece of paper with "Bachelor of Fine Arts" on it. In Los Angeles in particular, there are plenty of schools that you can just sign up for classes whenever you like, that enroll working professionals looking to learn new skills or sharpen old ones. Many have prequisites, but it doesn't matter if you took the prereq the prior semester, or two years ago.
But the experience of art classes, of having competent instructors that can pass on their knowledge and inspire you, is fantastic. Not to mention being in a room with a couple dozen other artists, and feeding off that energy.
Wasted money.
And, naturally, once you begin a degree program, you cannot transfer concurrent credits from another school.
So, if you're going for a degree, go to community college for a year or so. Have fun being "in college", draw in your spare time, or even sign up for some art courses to build a better foundation before you get to art school.
As for the "don't go to school, just draw on your own you'll be fine" advice, I think that's more applicable to degrees. You don't need a BFA to get a job in commercial art. Some HR departments may look favorably on a degree, but if the art is what matters in the job, the art is what matters in determining whether you get hired. Not a piece of paper with "Bachelor of Fine Arts" on it. In Los Angeles in particular, there are plenty of schools that you can just sign up for classes whenever you like, that enroll working professionals looking to learn new skills or sharpen old ones. Many have prequisites, but it doesn't matter if you took the prereq the prior semester, or two years ago.
But the experience of art classes, of having competent instructors that can pass on their knowledge and inspire you, is fantastic. Not to mention being in a room with a couple dozen other artists, and feeding off that energy.
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by cedricstudio » Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:01 pm
I agree with Toonimator--if you can find a school with a good art faculty and a creative, energetic environment, go for it. Its true that a degree doesn't mean much when looking for work--its your talent that counts. But the right art school makes developing your talent MUCH easier than doing it on your own.
I went to a state college with a great art department faculty, and I'm glad I did. The english, algebra, science, etc. were tough hoops to jump through. But, as hokey as it sounds, I think they helped me to be more well-rounded and therefore a better artist.
Art school is also a great opportunity to just hang out with other artists in a creative environment, inspring and learning from each others without the pressures of deadlines, budgets, etc. The creative freedom and energy is awesome, and hard to duplicate in the "real world".
There was a 2-year tech school in my city that gave out art & design degrees, and I knew one of the instructors there. My impression was that the curriculum was focused more on learning software, tricks and gimmicks than true art and design.
Anyway, thats my two cents. I'm 31 and still paying off my student loans, but the experience was worth it for me.
I went to a state college with a great art department faculty, and I'm glad I did. The english, algebra, science, etc. were tough hoops to jump through. But, as hokey as it sounds, I think they helped me to be more well-rounded and therefore a better artist.
Art school is also a great opportunity to just hang out with other artists in a creative environment, inspring and learning from each others without the pressures of deadlines, budgets, etc. The creative freedom and energy is awesome, and hard to duplicate in the "real world".
There was a 2-year tech school in my city that gave out art & design degrees, and I knew one of the instructors there. My impression was that the curriculum was focused more on learning software, tricks and gimmicks than true art and design.
Anyway, thats my two cents. I'm 31 and still paying off my student loans, but the experience was worth it for me.
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School Days, School Days
by Uloo » Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:52 am
I passed on the opportunity to attend art school,
but am forever enamored with Dame Academe.
Considering your prospects is vicariously thrilling!
Best wishes both as you make your plans
and, eventually, see them enacted.
but am forever enamored with Dame Academe.
Considering your prospects is vicariously thrilling!
Best wishes both as you make your plans
and, eventually, see them enacted.
- Uloo
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- Location: Portland, Oregon
by el Dopa » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:14 am
I too attended community college before going to an art school. Some benefits the others above haven't mentioned are:
Generally speaking, instructors and classes for core education are better at the community college level than at a dedicated art school, for the main reason that core education is just something art schools tack on to keep their accreditation, while core ed. is the primary focus of a community college.
Taking art classes at community college (to fill electives while you collect core units) will give you a feel for what kind of art education you need-- which can help you choose your finishing school. For example, by the time I was ready for art school, I was sure I'd had enough of the "theoretical", or verbal approach to art, and needed serious technical training. I knew I needed art teachers that would kick my ass and not play the P.C. game. I needed teachers that would tell me flat out if I was chasing a pipe dream if that was the case, rather than coddle my ego. I also learned that I needed professional artists as teachers, not professional teachers teaching art.
The first college years are a time for... "social education" shall we call it? Better to be missing finals and critiques because of that hangover when the class is cheap. Better to be at an expensive school when you're focused on academic education.
Not one student that I entered art school with that was straight out of high school graduated with me-- many of them never finished at all.
good luck, whatever you choose.
Generally speaking, instructors and classes for core education are better at the community college level than at a dedicated art school, for the main reason that core education is just something art schools tack on to keep their accreditation, while core ed. is the primary focus of a community college.
Taking art classes at community college (to fill electives while you collect core units) will give you a feel for what kind of art education you need-- which can help you choose your finishing school. For example, by the time I was ready for art school, I was sure I'd had enough of the "theoretical", or verbal approach to art, and needed serious technical training. I knew I needed art teachers that would kick my ass and not play the P.C. game. I needed teachers that would tell me flat out if I was chasing a pipe dream if that was the case, rather than coddle my ego. I also learned that I needed professional artists as teachers, not professional teachers teaching art.
The first college years are a time for... "social education" shall we call it? Better to be missing finals and critiques because of that hangover when the class is cheap. Better to be at an expensive school when you're focused on academic education.
Not one student that I entered art school with that was straight out of high school graduated with me-- many of them never finished at all.
good luck, whatever you choose.
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by chainsawguy one » Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:09 pm
I agree with what everyone has said to a point. Community College is great to get the academics out of the way. My college also taught a lot of academics at a subpar level, and I wish I had gone elsewhere instead of wasting all that money.
On the other hand, there were a lot of issues with a lot of students in transferring credits over into their degree program. (Obviously, the art college is going to try and get the most tuition out of you, so some community college classes just won't count.) I did a lot of my "outside" learning during the summer period, with specific paperwork that told me exactly which classes would transfer without problem. So if you do take this route, be very careful on what classes you need to finish a degree program.
As far as taking art classes in community college, I would suggest against it. There is no comparison between and art college and community college as far a learning how to draw. The atmosphere is drastically different. The attitude is completely different. The artists are completely different. When I was going to college, and even now when I go back for workshops, I see a huge gap between the students who have done all four years and the transfers. Those who have been there the full four years have had more of a solid foundation to build their skills off of, while the transfers had a lot of adjusting to do in order to get into the groove. When the final shows were hung, you can see more quality in the work of the 4 year students than in the transfers. There is something about being able to run completely through a system uninterrupted as opposed to jumping on halfway through and hoping for the best.
Toonimator said it well, and I'll back him up. What ever you decide to do, try to find a place where the people around you (students and instructors) will challenge you to become the best artist you can become. There is nothing like soaking up the knowledge of a seasoned veteran artist, and there is nothing like the creative competitive nature of art students. That will always be a major perk of an art college. Its kinda like this drawing board, only everyone lives in the same area, and everyone is really tired.
Good luck young Hoborg. Hope I helped a little. Keep us posted on what you do!
On the other hand, there were a lot of issues with a lot of students in transferring credits over into their degree program. (Obviously, the art college is going to try and get the most tuition out of you, so some community college classes just won't count.) I did a lot of my "outside" learning during the summer period, with specific paperwork that told me exactly which classes would transfer without problem. So if you do take this route, be very careful on what classes you need to finish a degree program.
As far as taking art classes in community college, I would suggest against it. There is no comparison between and art college and community college as far a learning how to draw. The atmosphere is drastically different. The attitude is completely different. The artists are completely different. When I was going to college, and even now when I go back for workshops, I see a huge gap between the students who have done all four years and the transfers. Those who have been there the full four years have had more of a solid foundation to build their skills off of, while the transfers had a lot of adjusting to do in order to get into the groove. When the final shows were hung, you can see more quality in the work of the 4 year students than in the transfers. There is something about being able to run completely through a system uninterrupted as opposed to jumping on halfway through and hoping for the best.
Toonimator said it well, and I'll back him up. What ever you decide to do, try to find a place where the people around you (students and instructors) will challenge you to become the best artist you can become. There is nothing like soaking up the knowledge of a seasoned veteran artist, and there is nothing like the creative competitive nature of art students. That will always be a major perk of an art college. Its kinda like this drawing board, only everyone lives in the same area, and everyone is really tired.
Good luck young Hoborg. Hope I helped a little. Keep us posted on what you do!
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by Toonimator » Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:09 pm
el Dopa wrote:The first college years are a time for... "social education" shall we call it? Better to be missing finals and critiques because of that hangover when the class is cheap. Better to be at an expensive school when you're focused on academic education.
I do wonder where I'd be and what my life would be like had I stayed in Fresno for a couple years, doing community college. I just remember I wanted to get done with college quickly, to get that job at Disney everyone said I'd get, and be the first in my family to graduate w/ a degree. In my haste, I made a lot of mistakes, and didn't apply myself nearly as much as I should. The liberal arts classes were definitely more of a distraction than I needed. Accreditation is the bane of art colleges. My school's sole goal seemed to be gaining more & more of it, along with more & more of the students' money, and causing major upheavals in various departments and students' schedules.
As for the more dedicated core teachers at community colleges, I'll agree there. Basic Math & Accounting, which I tested out of to get into Algebra, consisted of going over 3rd grade basics on the first day. 3rd grade. And many of my classmates looked bewildered. I like to think it's because they were so focused on their chosen majors... at least, I hope so. I kinda wish I'd stayed, just in case the accounting part of the class was worthwhile. I kinda stink at it.
Better to spend a few bucks at the community level, and not worry so much, before you spend thousands and have to balance a job or two AND get three 20-40-hour illustrations/paintings completed in a week. You don't need to be worrying about what Roosevelt's New Deal consisted of, or what 3x-y=2x/7 is.
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by Toonimator » Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:22 pm
chainsawguy one wrote:On the other hand, there were a lot of issues with a lot of students in transferring credits over into their degree program. (Obviously, the art college is going to try and get the most tuition out of you, so some community college classes just won't count.) I did a lot of my "outside" learning during the summer period, with specific paperwork that told me exactly which classes would transfer without problem. So if you do take this route, be very careful on what classes you need to finish a degree program.
I'd suggest checking with the art schools you'd like to attend, and find out what their individual requirements are, and what will be allowed before you actually start taking classes. Say, you want to go to Art Center, or CalArts, or School of Visual Arts. Check with each, see their curriculum, ask what their transfer policies are. Like Chainsaw, do some "outside" learning, but do it as early as possible. Odds are you'll only need one class of math, one science, one social studies, and maybe two of English-types (Creative Writing would count, as well)
chainsawguy one wrote:As far as taking art classes in community college, I would suggest against it. There is no comparison between and art college and community college as far a learning how to draw. The atmosphere is drastically different. The attitude is completely different. The artists are completely different. When I was going to college, and even now when I go back for workshops, I see a huge gap between the students who have done all four years and the transfers. Those who have been there the full four years have had more of a solid foundation to build their skills off of, while the transfers had a lot of adjusting to do in order to get into the groove. When the final shows were hung, you can see more quality in the work of the 4 year students than in the transfers. There is something about being able to run completely through a system uninterrupted as opposed to jumping on halfway through and hoping for the best.
Chainsaw, I'm sure you're correct about the atmosphere and attitude at CC art classes, but I was really just suggesting he take them to get a feel for it, to have a bit of instructional art... I didn't mean to suggest he take them for credits to transfer in! Just for practice, for an intro. Then, when it comes time to start at the actual art school, just transfer the general ed classes, and start fresh with ALL of the art courses. It'll probably be very different, but he'll have the full 4 years or so to learn.
Another benefit to getting the general ed courses outta the way first, is you can better balance your workload. You can take less classes per semester, being able to focus more attention on each one (not to mention have more time to work at your part-time job)... and hey, once you feel you've got some good skills down, you can start picking up some freelance artistic work, or even find an art-related full-time job and take night classes. It's entirely possible, and an art job will also further your education... and PAY you for it!
Whatever you do, don't worry about staying in school longer than 4 years. Heck, most of my classmates in art college STARTED when they were over 20, and stayed four or five years. One was on "the 8-year plan", taking less than three classes per semester, but also working as a graphic designer I think. I had several friends who were pushing 30 when they graduated. Some were pushing 30 when they started!
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by chainsawguy one » Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:53 pm
Toonimator wrote:Whatever you do, don't worry about staying in school longer than 4 years. Heck, most of my classmates in art college STARTED when they were over 20, and stayed four or five years. One was on "the 8-year plan", taking less than three classes per semester, but also working as a graphic designer I think. I had several friends who were pushing 30 when they graduated. Some were pushing 30 when they started!
Yuppers. I was a five year guy. The cool thing was that I was an artistic part of 2 talented graduating classes. If it weren't for the the sheer inspirational talent of those artists, I would never be what I am today.
Toonimator wrote:Another benefit to getting the general ed courses outta the way first, is you can better balance your workload. You can take less classes per semester, being able to focus more attention on each one (not to mention have more time to work at your part-time job)... and hey, once you feel you've got some good skills down, you can start picking up some freelance artistic work, or even find an art-related full-time job and take night classes. It's entirely possible, and an art job will also further your education... and PAY you for it!
I agree with this too. It is a pain when you are just finding your groove on an illustration to be burndened by a 15 page research paper. Getting all the academic stuff out of my hair before my final year really helped me concentrate on art, which earned me internships. And as Keith said, art jobs are the best of both worlds. (And if you play your cards right, free art supplies!)
That Keith is wacky, but he's a pretty smart guy.
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by el Dopa » Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:55 pm
Re: Transferring credits, it's definitely a good idea to scope out what a specific school accepts or not. I myself ended up taking one more semester at CC to complete an A.A. And the simple fact that I had that degree kept me from having to take classes over at my art school, as some of my collegues had to, because an A.A. transfers differently than just raw credits. It all depends on the institution.
As far as taking art classes at Community College, I certainly don't imply that they serve as a replacement for art school classes. My art school doesn't transfer studio units anyway. To do so is to simply be degree-oriented instead of education-oriented, and as we've heard before, there's not much value to a BFA. It's the education you should be focused on.
However, there are community colleges that "feed" art schools. Pasadena C.C. for example has a better-than-average art program, as they feed the Art Center. However, this is still no replacement; it is, as I stated before, a great way to get a feel for the kind of teaching style you might require. My own example was a negative one: I knew that what I needed was the exact opposite of what I was getting in C.C. So I found a school with a matching reputation.
As far as taking art classes at Community College, I certainly don't imply that they serve as a replacement for art school classes. My art school doesn't transfer studio units anyway. To do so is to simply be degree-oriented instead of education-oriented, and as we've heard before, there's not much value to a BFA. It's the education you should be focused on.
However, there are community colleges that "feed" art schools. Pasadena C.C. for example has a better-than-average art program, as they feed the Art Center. However, this is still no replacement; it is, as I stated before, a great way to get a feel for the kind of teaching style you might require. My own example was a negative one: I knew that what I needed was the exact opposite of what I was getting in C.C.
So I found a school with a matching reputation.- el Dopa
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by iamweasel1999 » Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:20 pm
I really can't stress enough how important it is if you go to a community college to make sure you keep in touch with the art school you intend to attend to make sure you have all the requirements in order. Theres nothing worse than being close to graduating, or whatever, and having a few more requirements blindside you.
As far as getting a degree, I can see the arguments for and against, but I personally feel that you should attend college for reasons other job training, because if thats all you want, then college is probably a waste of time. Also, in the off chance that you dont get the job you want right out of school, or later on in life, its possible that having an actual degree will help you get a job better than, say, Starbucks.
-Keith
As far as getting a degree, I can see the arguments for and against, but I personally feel that you should attend college for reasons other job training, because if thats all you want, then college is probably a waste of time. Also, in the off chance that you dont get the job you want right out of school, or later on in life, its possible that having an actual degree will help you get a job better than, say, Starbucks.
-Keith
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by Tyler » Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:44 am
iamweasel1999 wrote:As far as getting a degree, I can see the arguments for and against, but I personally feel that you should attend college for reasons other job training, because if thats all you want, then college is probably a waste of time. Also, in the off chance that you dont get the job you want right out of school, or later on in life, its possible that having an actual degree will help you get a job better than, say, Starbucks.
-Keith
That was one of the reasons I decided to go for the full BFA (I just started this year). A degree of any kind at all provides far more job opportunities than just high school. Of course the primary reason for my decision was the prospective experience of four years in acedamia. Currently I am attending the University of Calgary (AB, Ca) going for the BFA with a minor in "intermedia" (electronic media in art). It was a decision between the University or the rather well respected ACAD (Alberta College of Art & Design). How i wound up at the U is a bit of a story.
Straight out of highschool I applied at ACAD only to (not surprisingly) be rejected. That school requires a 15 piece portfolio to be evaluated for 1st year entry. At the time I had maybe 2 pieces that I was actually proud of, and the rest was assignments from HS art classes. So i took a couple years off to work and practice drawing. Then decided to go for the Uni instead as they offered far superior acedemic courses, slightly cheaper tuition, and still maintaining a well respected (if tiny) art community. When i say tiny i mean we occupy the two floors on top of the parkade.
Right now it's going quite well, though rather tiring. I say that now as I've got a bunch of final assignments due this week.- Tyler
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by btoonz » Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:20 am
Ditto to Neneuche's statement. I know that if I hadn't been in art school I would never have met the contacts in the animation biz that I did. I landed a great internship which then directed me into my dream job. It would have been much more difficult just walking in off the street into a studio trying to convince them to take a chance on a stranger just out of college. Definately go to schoo; and find an internship-----I learned so much from that experience----B
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