The DrawingBoard

by **jimmymcwicked** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 1:29 pm

i have looked in the welcome section and reviewed the intructional post titled <a href="http://pub127.ezboard.com/fcartoonandillustrationparadise66133frm19.showMessage?topicID=5.topic" target="top">'a note about replying and criticism'</a> after reading through an interesting post in the illustration section entitled <a href="http://pub127.ezboard.com/fcartoonandillustrationparadise66133frm22.showMessageRange?topicID=1070.topic&start=1&stop=20" target="top">'condom'</a>. i am curious about the general opinion on critiquing here is? i am not interested accepting a mandate in which praise is the only acceptible option in dealing with a posted item. it is no secret that i am abrupt at times with comments. i have been learning that a substantial percentage of members feel a critique must be either positive or, if by chance is addressing an aspect with issues, it should be wrapped up in a fluffy coating of half-hearted praise. while it is nice in theory to break it to 'em gently, if the point is to focus on improving, it is best to lay the facts on the line unfettered. having taught before, i have found that giving a direct comment is the most effective push toward improving. of course the potential for feelings to be hurt is there, but this is not a factor if the comments are taken as they are meant - as well meaning and (idealy) well-thought observations on the drawing, not the artist. to comment on flawed anatomy but bookending it with praise of the linework, colour or the artist's fine new bouffant (points which may otherwise be left unheralded), the tendancy of the recipient is to glow over his mastery of lines, colour and his hairstyle rather than seriously consider the anatomy issue. i am writing this not as an instruction of how i think our members must offer critiques - i am writing this to defend those of us who have come under fire for apparently not playing nice. the comments made in the 'condom' post by the fellow who seemed to rile up a few people were great. they weren't great due to the fact that he rubbed people the wrong way - they were great because they were clear and perfect. they were honest, well-thought and accurate. yet some members only took his comments as being rude or confrontational. i would challenge anyone to read the post and factually deny any point which was made. i recognize that his pill isn't a fruity flintstone vitamin - it is bitter going down and leaves a bad after-taste, but if taken and allowed to work, there will be an improvement. in addition, i have found a rather odd sentence in the 'replying and criticism' post... <blockquote>Quote:<hr>And remember, when someone gets good criticism, everyone can use that knowledge whether it's about your work or not.<hr></blockquote> i agree totally. however, to learn merely by regarding 'good' points exclusively (as this rather proactive sentence implies) is inaccurate. having worked at a professional level for many years prior to stumbling on this great site, i am quite excited to have found myself improving due to the interaction here. partially these improvements may be from the inspiration of seeing great images, but honestly it would be much more attributed to seeing the flawed attempts posted and from the critiques made as a result. i hope through my many flawed posts and the critiques made in regards to those flaws that i have contibuted to this system as well. i like this site as an interactive gallery which is always being updated. i have never intended to use this site to make friends - or enemies. i am glad that the by-product has been that i have met interesting and funny people, but unfortunately the inevitable has happened, but i have learned that i can't please everyone. luckily, it this very easy to accept... <img src="http://www.imgmag.com/images/dcm/ji-hyunxsociety.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

by **Kzanth** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:08 pm

Wow, Jimmy, impressive presentation. Well thought out and clearly stated. First, I think Shane's statement about 'good criticism' means not criticism solely focused on the good aspects, but 'good criticism' meaning any articulate analysis of a piece of art, good points and bad points. Good criticism meaning a well worded crit. Second, I disagree that artists tend to only hear the positive comments and filter out the negative. On the contrary, I think most artists are overly sensitive to the negative comments to the point that if there are too MANY negative comments, they shut down and dismiss the crit entirely. I know I've missed a lot of good crits simply because the critic was so negative about my stuff that I thought the person was full of sh-t. One boss I had would give me positive feedback often, but when he's throw out a negative about my work, I'd really take it as 'oh, damn, I did something wrong!'. If he always said my stuff sucked, first I'd wonder why I still had a job, but second I'd dismiss his opinion as irrelevant. Perhaps I'd miss out on his insight, but that would be my reaction. As far as people on this board reacting to crits, I wholeheartedly agree that the crits here are 'soft'. Maybe out of fear of the resulting flame-war backlash. I really like how at Bellefree they have two boards: one for 'velvet whips' and one for 'harsh crits'. Here there is no choice, and I've gotten to the point where I rarely read the comments anymore, because usually there are 3 pages of 'kewl' or 'perfect'. Even the really really really good art deserves some discussion. Even Shane's work isn't always perfect. I really LOVE the fact that he's added comments to his own work on his site. There's a drawing of a girl that at first glance I thought looked great. Then I read Shane's comment about not being happy with the eye, and sure enough I looked again and saw what he was unhappy with. It certainly helped me to look closer and only added to my respect for Shane. It also seems that the people who immediately knee-jerk react with "You're a dick" to the crits are the ones who've never been here before, or just joined. And usually it isn't even the artist reacting, which really blows my mind. I'm just not sure what the answer to all this is. I truely appreciate your closing comment about not being able to please everyone and accepting that. It's taken me years to accept that everyone has a different perspective and opinion. The thing that really keeps me going is the thought that no one's opinion, in the great scheme of things, really matters. Not even my own. Nice post. Thanks.

by **HellboyOne** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:21 pm

I finally read that thread, Jimmy. A lot of people just jumped the gun. Manco was in the right and some of those folks are too touchy. You yourself give great critique. I let them know how I felt on the thread. And yes....'good' critique means 'constructive' critique, not 'marshmallowy'. R. <a href="http://www.rickcortes.com"><img src="http://www.rickcortes.com/sitemarker.jpg"/></a> <a href="http://www.sketchbooksessions.com"><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/artsyfartsy/.Pictures/ssbanner1.gif"/></a>

by **angstorm** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:47 pm

For me, a good response to an art post contains one or more of the following, dosed out in appropriate quantities: - Praise - Encouragement - Criticism - Comedy - Faroukba poetry And speaking of crits Jimmy: brevity. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START

--><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> <a href="http://angstorm.com">:: angstorm.com :: updated June 8, 2003 ::</a> (avatar-icon by jimmymcwicked)

by **Scott Thigpen** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:57 pm

I concur, Jimmy also,what kind of crit is "fun stuff" anyway? Maybe there should be a thread called "Euphoria: post your pictures in here and no one will comment on them unless it's all praise. " <a href="http://www.sthig.com" target="_new"><img border=0 src="http://www.sthig.com/web%20design/graphics/loRES%20main%20graphics/sthig.link.jpg" /></a> <a href="http://www.sthig.com/" target="_new">Scott Thigpen -- Illustrator </a> <table width="136" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="136" align="center" valign="middle"><div align="left"><a href="http://www.sthig.com/100things.cfm" target="_new">100 Things about me</a> </div> <div align="left"></div></td> </tr> <tr> <td height="30" align="center" valign="bottom"><div align="left"><a href="http://www.mizdos.com/100things.htm" target="_new">The 100 Things WebRing</a></div></td> </tr></table><a href="http://www.sthig.com/" target="_new"> </a>

by **RandyPanTheGoatBoy** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:19 am

I tend to post crits of the "cool" and "gorgeous" type when I think the poster has put up an FINISHED image simply to share. A casual post, if you like. If the poster asks for crits, then I tell them things that I think need fixing. Most of the time though, there are far better qualified people around to tell someone whats wrong. I think Jimmy and Manco post some excellent comments, if they rub people up the wrong way, then more fool the people who can't appreciate good advice when its given. It seems that the illustration board, along with the drawing class board itself, are possibly the more "serious" boards on here. By "serious" I mean on some occasions, pics that are posted there have been created to earn the artist a bit of $$$ or page space. People who use those two boards should be prepared for more than just the usual "Cool" and "gorgeous" comments. (i should shut up now and draw more.... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"> ) <center>JAM<center>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub127.ezboard.com/bcartoonandillustrationparadise66133.showUserPublicProfile?gid=randypanthegoatboy>RandyPanTheGoatBoy</A> at: 6/20/03 4:23 am

by **faroukba** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:02 am

yeah randy that would be cool gorgeous

by **The Dark Hero** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:06 am

I agree with jimmy and co. it does seem like everything gets sugar coated, when it should be given precisely just as jimmy tends to do. I myself come and post my work here not to receive praise, it isnt what im looking for, i beleive in one of my very first posts i stated i wasnt just here for that, i wanted genuine criticism, i got no replies so i bumped my post and the first person to reply used a line such as "im not sure if your just here for belly rubs...." which if hed actually bothered to read my statement i was looking for criticism, unfortunately for me my work often goes uncriticised and i tend not to be able to grow as much as i would if jimmy were to jump in and rip me to shreds everytime. When i first read jimmy's harsh critique of a peice i did i had a tinge of offence but i knew that was simply a knee-jerk reaction, and i read it once and left it and came back to the post again later and re-read it and re-read it until it no longer hurt but made perfect sense, everything he had said was right and it made me concious of my mistakes, if all id received was those "i like this, i like that, this is fantastic" posts id continue to spew out this SHIT as it was, sure the occasional belly rub is a good stroke of the ego (did i just run out of cliche's?) and can help you feel more confidant about your work and if its worthy of having such comments as a lot of the art here does then so be it post away. I guess people dont go hard at a picture the way jimmy does because they dont want to offend people, even tho they are here to receive critiques that initial knee-jerk reaction can make you reply and say something stupid and thus start a big argument, youve all seen it you know, i could easily have posted straight after jimmy (i think i hit the reply button and was going to....silly boy) but i had enough common sense to see through it, whereas not every young artist out there can sit back for a moment and take the criticism so harshly. What am i trying to say? i dont know, im stressed im angry at myself (outside problems you kids are alright) and im releasing and ranting as i like to do, i guess what im trying to say is jimmy keep ripping people apart and others keep rubbing bellies maybe if theres a nice mix it will keep some level of peace.

by **THEARROW2000** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:12 am

I agree with Jimmy 100%. I've posted some tough crits here--been accused on being too harsh--maybe a few times off-base in some ways. But I think I was always fair. Isn't that what a good crit is all about? If the work sucks--do you patronize the fellow? I do, to a small degree.........but i also take pains to point out the flaws.......to a degree.......and try to be sensitive about it at the same time. It depends on my moods too. Some folks simply draw like shit. Some have no hope of doing this professionally--it took me a LONG time to accept that and I still wrestle with the notion. I like to try to help.......but at some point, its pretty clear the artist isn't going to rise to it. Then you have to let go. I read the thread in question, Manco was spot on, and I've been in the exact same position he was in. I realize I approach crits with a bias built in. I ASSUME people aspire to being a professional--so I take that tact. Its not always the case, BUT, in most cases its true. On the job, crits can be like an ugly rape. Just brutal. Its a fact of life in the biz that not all folks are able to articulate themselves well, or always be sensitive to an artist's ego. People that cannot handle it get weeded out and that is part of the process, like it or not. I think that if the crit is SOLICITED, then whatever gets posted is exactly what the artist wants...........good or bad. If they think the crit is too hard, it might need to be taken in context. If guidance is offered, despite any harsh comments, then there's value there. Gushing praise is of less value, IMO, because it can form delusions--although the encouragement can drive the talent to keep going. Besides, I think the obvious is being overlooked here. If Jimmy, myself or anyone else here really wanted to offend someone, we'd just come out and do it. It makes no sense to pussy-foot around with an insult, right? --Ken

by **HellboyOne** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 9:33 am

I'm so goddamn sick of this fucking issue. All we are saying is there is NEVER any need to insult any artist here. If the crit is good (like Manco's in that Condom thread, which was taken quite the wrong way by a bunch of sensitive posters...Manco was critical yet supportive), then fine. If a post starts with "You suck and this is why..." nobody's gonna listen to you and you're gonna get shit on just as hard as you shit on whomever you critiqued. Everyone comes out of the woodwork to defend or offend. Fuck all that. Just read the WELCOME section, which I'm CONSTANTLY having to update (soon I'll have to add pictures and audio to spell everything out) and get posting. Post pictures, post comments, post critique. Be "harsh" if it is in your nature, but be supportive. How easy it is to crush the hopes of some 15 year old posting here with one cruel word from artists he thought he respected. You can rip a drawing apart without being insulting. If you get dumped on by board members because of your critique and none of the moderators back you up (including Shane), then yeah...you were probably being a dick (no offense, don't remember any of those critiques). There are art boards out there with rediculously extreme rules about what to post and how to post it. This board's pretty loose. We have guidelines more than anything and, Jesus, if people can't follow some guidelines then I don't know what the hell else there is. The same people pop up and complain about this crap OVER and OVER..."I agree with so and so, this board's weak." Get OVER it. Find that magic message board out there where everyone can be extremely harsh with their critique thereby reducing it to meaningless destructive typing. Because this board ain't it. I'd really like to move on with my life so if you people would just please post the pretty pictures (or the shitty pictures) and the rest of us will praise or critique, and vice versa. You don't have to sugar coat but you don't have to be a dick either. See you all in 3 months when this same shit happens. Again. R. <a href="http://www.rickcortes.com"><img src="http://www.rickcortes.com/sitemarker.jpg"/></a> <a href="http://www.sketchbooksessions.com"><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/artsyfartsy/.Pictures/ssbanner1.gif"/></a>

by **Kzanth** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:13 pm

Ok, Rick. Breathe. Calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean. I don't think Jimmy or anyone is upset with the level of crits, or said that this board is 'weak'. Ok, I did say that I thought most of the crits were 'soft', but I say that because I think most posters avoid giving a harsh crit BECAUSE they fear that backlash, not because I think this board is 'weak'. I love looking at the stuff on this board. We all love this board. That's why we come back over and over. It's these pansy-ass posters (often not the actual artist) who get their panties in a wad about the crit itself. Jimmy's crits, or THE ARROW, or even Fabruka's, always have good salient points. (admittedly there are times you have to decipher Fabruka's...but it's always fun to do so) But there's always one poster who doesn't 'get' their crits and wants to piss up their tree. I think Jimmy's question boils down to: should we avoid giving harsh crits, even unasked for crits, because someone may get offended? I'd say no. What do we do about the one or two pissers who show up and say, "You're a dick for not falling down and kissing the feet of this artist"? Usually, the rest of the board comes to the defense of the critic and their comments...which is a good thing. The pisser ends up disappearing. I guess I answered my own question. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub127.ezboard.com/bcartoonandillustrationparadise66133.showUserPublicProfile?gid=kzanth>Kzanth</A> at: 6/20/03 3:18 pm

by **BitchyKen** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:50 pm

holy crap...... me thinks the moderator should use some moderation. whats hellboy's problem???? someone posts a specific topic on a specific message board about a specific problem and freaks out.this was a contained discussion on this topic and i'm not sure why "you're sick of this fucking crap" at least it was not discussed in the regular forums,which, when it happens,sounds petty and gay.(see hellboys ludicrous chin starp comments in COMICS-CAPTAIN AMERICA)get a life you moderating loser!!!!

by **Toonimator** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:30 pm

Why's he so upset? Not at THIS thread, but at this general occurence of critiques being called into question. Every now & then, someone takes a crit (not even about their own artwork) the wrong way, and this whole flame war erupts about how people shouldn't be so harsh in their critiques, then a bunch of other folks jump up & bitch about all the ass-kissing the board ususally has & how everyone's treated with kid gloves and on & on & on. It's annoying. It's frustrating. And hey, not coincidentally in my opinion, it usually gets a lot of new folks to sign up for an account JUST to voice their opinion on the matter. Then they vanish & delete their accounts. Goddamn trolls. So yeah, I'm upset about it too. It keeps happening. One more thing... DELETED!! Keith <a href="http://www.toonimator.com" target="top"><img src="http://www.toonimator.com/toon_banner01.gif"/></a> <a href="http://www.sketchbooksessions.com" target="top"><img src="http://www.toonimator.com/ssbanner1.gif"/></a>

by **HellboyOne** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I think Jimmy's question boils down to: should we avoid giving harsh crits, even unasked for crits, because someone may get offended?<hr></blockquote> I'll say it again. Be as harsh as you like, but always with a supportive tone. BitchyKen: I in no way wanted to hold back Jimmy in critiquing anything in that Captain America post. I don't even want to hold anyone back from saying anything they wanna say. I just thought the strap comment was pretty funny given that I probably 99.9 percent of the people to see those straps wouldn't ever notice it even with notes declaring the straps were wrong. And if anyone's gonne be a dick in a critique (and I know you're all intelligent enough to know when you're doing so), then don't be all up in arms when the board pisses on you about it. I'm a moderating loser, huh? When you've posted more than 18 times and know what the hell you're talking about, then I'll 'bitch' you out. Not tonight though. Kzanth: Jimmy's a good guy...sometimes annoying (but he knows that <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START

--><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> ), but I find him to be an asset to the board who's got nothing but constructive words for any artist. I'm glad he's here. I'm even glad he brought this subject up in a way. He's a little more clear-minded about it than the rest of us. And I know you've contributed positively before. I'm unsure about Arrow's critique past. Apologies for flying off the handle. But sometimes this board's draining. Now I know how Shane feels when he wanted to shut it down. R. <a href="http://www.rickcortes.com"><img src="http://www.rickcortes.com/sitemarker.jpg"/></a> <a href="http://www.sketchbooksessions.com"><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/artsyfartsy/.Pictures/ssbanner1.gif"/></a>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub127.ezboard.com/bcartoonandillustrationparadise66133.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hellboyone>HellboyOne</A> at: 6/20/03 6:11 pm

by **faroukba** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:20 pm

bitchy ken ha h ha ha ha ha 'bitchy ken' where the feck did ya ge tthat from????? yer a bitch named ken ha ha ha ha lez nob be carrioned awail be nice fer feck sake.........spread joy ya bunch a'tools diven need dis rhubarl tis a larf no cereals take it f'ck!

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