How did you people improve in ...

[ARROW]

What is the best way to practice? Draw stuff from your head or what you see, or trying to draw other artists work?

See my previous post in this thread, and look at and do every exercise in the books I recommended.

Can I offer an alternative??

Human nature being what it is, simply doing a exercise because someone else suggests it as "the method" seldom works--and this is so because the interest level of the person trying to draw usually doesn't stretch into the realms of drawing stuff that's not personal too them.


People don't like to abandon what they know, and like, to try something different that may be initially frustrating for them. If they try it and fail then they usually don't continue and cover the failure up so no-one ever knows about it. If one steps forth and commands that thou shalt draw only hands( to become good at them) and the budding artists tries a couple of hands and fails miserably they will not likely go on.

Learning something as personal as drawing can be very much like this.

So what to do?

Take what you know and ADD to it.
Most people, in my observation have some measure of drawing skill that satisfies them--so why forsake that? Keep drawing what you feel you are strong at and add to it things that you are not.
Can't draw hands, but you can draw a face? Draw that face, but add shoulders then a arm. And then a hand. build from there.
No good at perspective?
Draw a figure standing in front of a simple fence or wall shape that recedes into the distance.
Start small and build from there,.and this way you can have a "successful" image, even if the additonal stuff isn't as strong. And you will STAY interested as well as broaden your skills.

[hfguide]

The original poster asked people how they *personally* improved at drawing. The books that I recommended are exactly how I improved at drawing. I would never be where I was without Jack Hamm, without Loomis, without Doug Jamieson, because they provided for me the blueprint where I could finally improve on my own. And none of the books I touched on teach *method.* Not one of them. They all provide guidance and new ways of looking at the world and the human body that enabled me to improve drawing wise.

Nevertheless, you made up a very, very interesting and crucial (!!) point regarding the problem of drawing which may be a clue as to why so many people have trouble improving at it. Before learning all the rules, they would rather *do it their way.* There's a *way* they want to do it, a look they're going for. Thing is, doing it *your way* before you've even learned how to do it other people's ways (especially people who have experience) is handicapping yourself.

Like, recently I had this epiphany. I was cartooning this head, and was going, "Dangit-- why can't I get the head right? I've read every book I can on human anatomy; I know instinctively it's wrong; I even know as I'm drawing it that it's wrong; and still--?" Then I really took a hard, long look at my heads and realized, "Oh, crap. It's not because I don't know how to draw the human head. It's because ten years ago, I *decided* that *this* was the way heads were to be drawn and stuck to it. This is MY way. These drawings are personal; this is MY WAY, dammit!"

I had grown too attached to the way of drawing heads this way." That's when I realized that this was part of the reason why I had never really improved at drawing for years. Too stubborn. It wasn't until I let go of MY way until I improved. So I don't think that telling someone to just stick to their method by adding to it is going to help them improve all that much. But that's my opinion.

Nevertheless, you're still right about the "learning from others" way being a problem for beginners, since people want to draw their way because drawing is too personal for them. The solution is to find books that teach drawing in a way that is engaging IN ITSELF and where you don't feel as though you're losing yourself creatively. In other words, it has to be a book where the exercises are so fun and exciting, you don't mind doing them. That's why I recommended those books. Hamm et. al were the first authors I ever read where I enjoyed learning from them, because I didn't feel as if I was learning drawing *their* way. I felt like I was learning drawing itself.

[Pusha V]

Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection, Rejection.

Until i got it right.
That is how I got better.
Failure and Rejection is part of being an artist.

[nentreri]

Hfguide, do you know anywhere that I could find a copy of Draw From Your Head? It seems very hard to find. I did see a copy on Amazon.com ,but for a pretty penny (about 80 bucks). I'm a beginner drawer.. do you think that it would be worth the money, and would prove helpful to me?

[Ten-Thousand-Suicides]

Ah here's a thread about my favorite (most hated) subject, learning how to draw.

In some ways I'm probably the worst person to give advice, because I haven't been able to improve my drawing capabilities even a little bit in over 8 years (And I'm not kidding about it like that other guy!). BUT on the other hand, since learning how to draw has been such a HUGE challenge for me, I may offer better advice than somebody who just learns easily and naturally.

After asking the question a million times the answer I have found is that you need to copy. Draw from life, copy photographs, and copy other people's artwork. I've done over 2000 hours of "imagination drawing" with no improvement whatsoever. It's a dead end, just look in the Sunday Funnies! However I should also say that I've done over 300 hours of life drawing and other copying activities with no benefit yet either. The only thing I can think of is that I need to do alot more (I'm thinking in the 10,000 hour range) to become good at drawing. Why haven't I done it yet? I'm lazy. I hate drawing. Especially copying. Staring at something for hours and trying to reproduce its image on paper is like torture for me. But, someday I will put in the 10,000 hours/4-6 years of copying I need to so I can become good at drawing. After that I'll lessen the amount but still keep doing it so I can keep getting better.

Anyway, if you wanna see someone who has started from the beginning and made some progress over 2 years you can check out this link to "Journey of an Absolute Rookie". He still is not very good but he HAS made progress over the last 2 years and he seems to be getting better and better.

Anyway, the only thing I'll say now is that you should get it out of your head that drawing is fun or creative. Drawing is primarily a skill that can only be earned through thousands of hours of tedious hard work. Or it can be exceedingly easy for you if you happen to be born with lots of talent and a photographic memory and everything. Ah... But just think of how much more the skills will MEAN to you knowing that you've EARNED them!

[sansoouser]

Was that post suppose to help me? I got the impression that you hated drawing and it wasn't any fun, and that you've wasted over 5000 hours doing something you hate... Maybe drawing isn't right for you?

[Ten-Thousand-Suicides]

Sorry sansoouser, I'm just insanely bitter and like to complain .

Yeah I think it can help you! Don't worry if you're not a "natural," if other people easily push by you. How would you feel if some little child looked at you drawing, and said "oh let me try" and then drew better than you on his first try? Would you give up? Never give up! The only people who are going to succeed are those that stubbornly insist on continuing no matter what!

What I was trying to illuminate for you was that drawing from imagination is a waste of time concerning learning to draw better. You'll only get better from outside help. When you draw from imagination you are merely regurgitating what you already know, it's not going to help you improve. My point was if you want to learn how to draw you've got to copy copy copy....ALOT. Patience and hard work are going to help you. You have control, if you don't force yourself to improve-it isn't going to happen! It's not going to happen naturally - if you want to improve your drawing abilities you must take deliberate action. Force it! Work hard! If you eliminate the "fun drawing" then you can look at your work objectively and concentrate on improving your weak points-if you just try to do the kind of drawing you enjoy your weaknesses will remain! What I'm saying is that your weak points are there because they are the aspects of drawing that you don't enjoy working on. To really become good you're just going to have to bite the bullet and do drawing exercises that you WILL NOT enjoy.

You get better by copying and drawing from life. Lots.

As for me, I'm never going to give up-and that's why I will succeed. My strong determination, to learn to draw despite my inadequacies and my hatred of drawing, will enable me to become the greatest artist who has ever lived. It's ambition over talent!

Take control and make yourself who you want to be, fight your own nature or you will forever be consumed by self-loathing! Don't take what's given to you and fake satisfaction! FIGHT AND BECOME A GOD!

[hfguide]

Hfguide, do you know anywhere that I could find a copy of Draw From Your Head? It seems very hard to find. I did see a copy on Amazon.com ,but for a pretty penny (about 80 bucks). I'm a beginner drawer.. do you think that it would be worth the money, and would prove helpful to me?

I'm sorry to say, but your best bet may either be to wait for a kind soul on amazon to offer up a used copy at a reasonable price OR go go to your local library and either check it out or make copies.

But don't despair. Even if you don't find it, I think that Jack Hamm is the next best thing. Get his book on figure drawing and really look at what he says and what he draws.

BTW, I don't think any book is worth 80 bucks unless it's over fifty years old. It sucks that someone is trying to gouge people because a book is out of print.

[sansoouser]

By copy, do you mean copying other artists work?

[AgentDenim]

By copy, do you mean copying other artists work?

Sure, for practice, this works. This is how I learned to draw hands and a few aspects of digital coloring.
One way to practice.... Pick one thing you have trouble with, and draw it a million times in different positions (i.e. hands... you should see how many pages of paper I used learning hands). Keep drawing until you're comfortable. Then pick something else. And so on.

Search the web for tutorials. There are some here in this forum, and a bunch of decent tutorials at http://www.gfxartist.com/features/tutorials that I've read thgouh and tried to understand. Some also at http://www.steeldolphin.com/index.php (click on tutorials).

Try books, try videos, try drawing living models (get a friend to pose a hand in a position for you). Draw from pictures, if you have nothing else. Use Google images to find images you'd like to use as samples/models.

As for copying, you can do that to practice, but never outright copy and then claim as your own. I once asked a published author and literary critic how I could get into writing novels if I had a writer's block. His reply was to pick an author I really liked or appreciated, then try to emulate his style in practice. In doing so, he said it'd be easier to find my own voice. But he did caution not to copy outright, or the critics will know, and it's downhill from there.

Good luck!
- Aric C.
www.HOSERS.org
www.ComicMaps.com

[Ten-Thousand-Suicides]

yeah by "copying" I mainly meant to "copy" from life (mostly referred to as life drawing) and copy photographs. I think you can copy other artists to try and learn specific drawing styles, but the important stuff is learnt through looking at and drawing from reality. You may get faster results initially from copying other's artwork but it is much more thorough to draw right from life (and also faster is a relative term- expect to spend months and months copying before you see any improvement). Also I should remind you that learning how to draw is not easy, not fast, and not fun for most people. That is why you see so few really great artists. Most artists have deficincies that they refuse to work on because they are out of their comfort zone and they don't enjoy working on them. For average humans-it is truly a herculean task to learn how to draw really well. Gonna take years and years....hours and hours everyday... But it can be done! Just don't give up and eventually you'll succeed! (or die, whatever comes first)

[Blacklight]

I had heard once that photographs are too two-dimensional to be useful in drawing practice. Is that really the case?

[jadedchron]

I've been drawing since I was 4, stopped a few times, and now I'm 21 and still can't draw figures well enough, so welcome to the club. Although, I am in my first life drawing class, so let's hope it doesn't iterate what I've already read 500x before

[Ten-Thousand-Suicides]

I was going to wait for someone more knowledgeable to answer Blacklight's question, but no one did so I guess I'll try...

From what I have heard drawing directly from life is the best way to learn how to draw. Photographs, because of their flatness and also because photographs distort reality slightly, among probably other reasons, are not considered as good for practice as drawing directly from life. However, you can still learn from them and I don't think it will cripple your education learning how to draw from photos. Life drawing is just preferable. You can also learn from copying other people's artwork, but since that has already been interpreted by another artist you are copying their mistakes if you learn from them. So if you can you should draw from life. If you've drawn from life as much as you can and need to draw something different, copy photographs. And if you want to learn particular drawing styles copy other artists' work.

This is just what the majority of people have told me though... Recently I was talking to an art teacher who said copying other's artwork was the best way to learn, because they had already solved many of the problems for you (IE you don't have to try to figure out how to draw reality as a tone drawing, you can just copy exactly what the other artist has put down). However the majority of people say life-drawing is the way to go...

Besides just life drawing their are a few more technical things about drawing you've got to learn, like perspective for example. Learning the basics of perspective will probably take you an afternoon, but you're going to have to do YEARS AND YEARS of life drawing and copying before you actually begin to become good at drawing. Really now, I'm just trying to nail this in... Learning how to draw is NOT FUN. You have to be strict with yourself, and use discipline! Just doing a little life drawing every few days is not going to do ANYTHING. You have to say that EVERYDAY I will do X amount of hours life drawing (that X should be over 3 and probably more around 6-8 by the way). Don't expect to feel the exultation of improving either! It's going to months and months before you see ANY improvement. I'm willing to bet that it will be AT LEAST 3 months before you see any change whatsoever. Learning how to draw is slooooooooooooooow work. It's darn miserable work too!

Anyway, not trying to discourage you, just trying to show you the reality of how difficult it is to get better at drawing. Remember, no matter how bad it hurts-as long as you don't give up you have to succeed eventually! It takes an iron will, inhuman discipline, hard work, a never-ending supply of determination and loads of patience! You're going to feel like a miserable failure, torturing yourself all day every day for absolutely no reason most of the time. It's a horrible horrible life, but if you really need to be able to draw well then you don't have a choice.

Good luck and never give up.

[Blacklight]

Thanks, that is helpful. I've been trying to make sure I'm drawing from interesting photos, at least, like back issues of "Travel and Leisure" that show a range of races, ages, and body shapes.

I'd rather learn to draw the hard way that get harnessed into one style. My hobby is anime, and I see too many people that are happy to get stuck on their favorite character design.